Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/pc/text/spacedig/v15_0/v15no042.txt

Internet Message Format | 1993-07-13 | 32KB

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 05:00:02
From: Space Digest maintainer <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Subject: Space Digest V15 #042
To: Space Digest Readers
Precedence: bulk


Space Digest                Tue, 28 Jul 92       Volume 15 : Issue 042

Today's Topics:
        Astronomy Lab for MS Windows 3.X - BETA TESTERS NEEDED
                            Delta (2 msgs)
                          E-mail newsletters
    Food additive? (was Re: Antimatter (was propulsion questions))
    History of black holes (was Re: Relativity in science fiction)
      Innumeracy: Won't You Please Help?(was Re: Whales (SETI))
     Martino's lunar suicide (was Re: message from Space Digest)
                     Methods for meteor avoidance
                        NASP, NLS, SSTO, etc.
                     Radiative heat loss (2 msgs)
               Relativity in science fiction)READ/NEXT
                            Space position
            Tethersat visible? (was Re: TSS-1 launch time)
                        Whales (SETI) (3 msgs)
                         Whales and Dolphins

    Welcome to the Space Digest!!  Please send your messages to
    "[e-mail]", and (un)subscription requests of the form
    "Subscribe Space <your name>" to one of these addresses: listserv@uga
    (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle
    (THENET), or [e-mail] (Internet).
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 08:59:36 GMT
From:
Subject: Astronomy Lab for MS Windows 3.X - BETA TESTERS NEEDED
Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.ibm.pc.misc,sci.astro,sci.space,sci.edu,comp.windows.ms.programmer,comp.binaries.ibm.pc.d

I also tried to write to become a beta tester,
and had mail bounce...

Any other suggestions???



--
       _ _ _                  __
      ' ) ) )                /  )     _/_
       / / / o _. __  _ --- /  / __.  /  __.
      / ' (_<_(__/ (_(_)   /__/_(_/|_<__(_/|_
          C  O  N  S  U  L  T  A  N  T  S
       Kenn Booth II >-< [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 09:42:42 GMT
From: George William Herbert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Delta
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Roberts) writes:
>[...]
>There have been proposals for a heavylift Delta, which as I gather is
>essentially a whole batch of Delta rockets (complete with boosters)
>strapped together.
>[...]

    The HL Delta design doesn't use solid boosters on all the
"core" vehicles... the one I saw had 24 Castors, four per on the
six outer Delta vehicles.  The problem that you pointed out [deleted from
included text] with staging solid boosters from the "inside" of the
cluster is avoided by not putting any inside 8-)
    The HL Delta is a neat vehicle concept... it does as reported
here have a safety margin in excess of 2.0 in all of the new hardware,
because the designer didn't want to spend $5 billion dollars and five
years to qualify it.  He was figuring an order of magnitude
less expensive and eighteen months.  Probably optimistically,
but nonethelessvery reasonable. 8-)  I had a chance to talk to
him for a while ... he knew it could be done quick and dirty and wanted
to do it that way, dammit. 8-)  [name escapes me entirely, and I may
not have written it down... sorry].

-george william herbert
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 12:38:29 GMT
From: "Allen W. Sherzer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Delta
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Roberts) writes:

>There have been proposals for a heavylift Delta, which as I gather is
>essentially a whole batch of Delta rockets (complete with boosters)
>strapped together.

The HL Delta is six Delta first stages connected together (like what was
done for the Saturn 1B) and three SRBs. No Delta boosters are used. The
second stage is simply another Delta first stage.

>Given the wide divergence of the flame, how are the
>flames of the multiple Deltas to be prevented from interfering with one
>another

Since the Delta boosters aren't used I don't think this is a problem.

>given the way the SRBs detach, how are the ones "inside" the cluster of
>deltas going to be assured clearance so that they avoid hitting the
>structure? (I have a mental image of a huge latticework like the dome of
>the Astrodome, imbedded with widely-spaced Deltas, rising up into the sky. :-)

The spearation systems are all off the shelf. The SRBs will use the same
system as with the Shuttle.

Your mental image of the design is incorrect (I think). Imagine two Delta
first stages (without boosters) bolted together. Call that a Delta cluster.
Now imagine three Delat Clusters connected together to form a triangle.
Then put a SRB at the place where the three clusters connect. That is the
first stage. The second stage is a Delta first stage which fits inside the
triangle made in the first stage.

I'm going out of town tonight but I have some postscript drawings I can
post if ther is interest when I get back.

>Are these considered solved problems, or is that what the proposed development
>funding would be for?

I believe these where all addressed in the phase I study. I have seen some
of the drawings and it looks like they got pretty far along.

>The flight commentary also mentioned that this launch was the last to use
>this specific configuration, which has a perfect operational record. Anybody
>know what configuration is to be used in the future? (Allen, I'm hoping
>you know something about this. :-)


Sorry, the only aerospace hardware I know of with a perfect operational
record is the HAL 9000 series computers. As of July 27, 1992 they have
never made a mistake or distorted information. :-)

   Allen

--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they     |
|  [e-mail]     |  put a man on the Moon?"                               |
+----------------------270 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 09:12:24 GMT
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <[e-mail]>
Subject: E-mail newsletters
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Wininger) writes:

> Are there any newsletters that are disseminated through e-mail relating
> to the topics of astronomy/space science/NASA Headline News.

I think it worthwhile to point out that a number of mailing lists are
discussed in the monthly posting of "Frequently Asked Questions."
Look in the one titled "Subject: Space FAQ 02/15 - Network Resources"
for information about mailing lists.

Lists covered include:

    SPACE Digest

    Space-investors

    Space-tech

    SEDS-L (Students for the Exploration and Development of Space)

    SEDSNEWS

A quick search through the list of LISTSERV lists on Bitnet turns up some
further candidates:

List name        Address for        Description
                 postings (NOT for
                 subscription
                 requests!
--------         ----------------  ---------------------------------
ASTRO-PL         ASTRO-PL@JPNYITP  Preprint server for Astrophysics
  (What the heck, I'll throw this next one in:)
ASTROL-L         ASTROL-L@BRUFPB   FORUM FOR ASTROLOGICAL DISCUSSION
CANSPACE         CANSPACE@UNBVM1   Canadian Space Geodesy Forum
ISDS             ISDS@UIUCVMD      ISDS Illini Space Development Society List
JCMT-L           JCMT-L@UALTAVM    James Clerk Maxwell Telescope
SPACE            SPACE@FINHUTC     (Peered) SPACE Digest
                 SPACE@TCSVM       (Peered) SPACE Digest
                 SPACE@UBVM        (Peered) SPACE Digest
                 SPACE@UGA         (Peered) SPACE Digest
SPACE-IL         SPACE-IL@TAUNIVM  Israeli Space & Remote Sensing List

To subscribe to any of these, send mail to LISTSERV@node, where "node"
is the Bitnet node in the second column, by your favorite method of
getting mail to Bitnet.   The mail should say "SUB Listname Your_Name"
in the body of the message.

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | The restaurant's architect
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | said every effort had been
Bitnet:           [e-mail]  | made to build McDonald's
Internet:       [e-mail]  | 15th outlet in Italy
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  | in harmony with Pompeii.
                                       | --Reuters story in *Chicago
                                       |  Sun-Times*, 18 June 92

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 07:34:52 GMT
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Food additive? (was Re: Antimatter (was propulsion questions))
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <rmartin.711835609@thor>, [e-mail] (Bob Martin) writes:
> [e-mail] (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
>
> |BTW, Antimatter should also be rather stable at low temperatures.
> |Some of the positrons should boil off and be annihilated, leaving the
> |rest of the antimatter with a net negative charge. This should keep
> |electrons away, while keeping enough positrons bound to the set of
> |molecules to "screen" away protons and other positive nuclei...
>
> I'm beginning to think that this stuff is so stable that you could use
> it as a food additive.  Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, where is the kaboom it
> gives.

Once I was in a bakery with another physicist.  The display cases
incorporated mirrors.  Right next to a pile of brownies was another
pile labeled "SEINWORB c55."

That's when we conceived our diet book:

                    THE AMAZING ANTIMATTER DIET:
              Eat All You Want and *Still* Lose Weight!

Alas, we got busy with other projects and never got around to writing
it...

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | "I'm gonna keep on writing
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | songs until I write the song
Bitnet:           [e-mail]  | that makes the guys in
Internet:       [e-mail]  | Detroit who build the cars
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  | put tailfins on 'em again."
                                            --John Prine

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 12:25:54 GMT
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <[e-mail]>
Subject: History of black holes (was Re: Relativity in science fiction)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (John Roberts) writes:
[in speaking of Doc Smith and the Lensman series]
> I've wondered about the chronology of the "negaspheres" (first appearing
> in the series in 1951, and apparently equivalent to antimatter black
> holes) and the development of theories on black holes. When did serious
> theorization on black holes come along?

Laplace figured out (about 1780?) that if escape velocity for a body
was the speed of light, it might be invisible.  Set GM/R = .5*(c**2)
and you can find the radius of a "classical" black hole of a given
mass.  I heard somewhere that this is incorrect but the right order of
magnitude for a relativistic BH.  But it's been a long time since I
had anything to do with black holes, so check with an expert.

J.R. Oppenheimer, working with somebody else who has slipped my mind,
published some work on "modern" black holes in the mid-1930s.

     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
 /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
 |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \       /     Bitnet:     [e-mail]
   -   -       Internet:  [e-mail]
     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 12:21:05 GMT
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Innumeracy: Won't You Please Help?(was Re: Whales (SETI))
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Janow) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>
>>> Any creature that doesn't grasp mathematics can't be said to be intelligent.
>>
>>Well, that lets out a lot of high school graduates.  :-)
>
> And a lot of college graduates and most politicians. Innumeracy is a
> major problem.

Yes.  It's an affliction suffered by billions.

Or was that millions?

Anyway, "many."

Bill Higgins                           | Every so often, Innumeracy
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | strikes.  Out of all Americans,
Bitnet:     [e-mail]        | a lot suffer from it.  But
Internet:  [e-mail]       | we can win the fight against
SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS       | Innumeracy with your help.
                                       | All it takes is a few pennies a day.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 10:24:57 GMT
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Martino's lunar suicide (was Re: message from Space Digest)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bob Martino) writes:
+> In article <[e-mail]+> [e-mail] writes:
+>>To Anyone on this list who would enjoy answering my question about outer
+>>space:
+>>   I am an artist and independent producer.
[...]
+>>   Tomorrow you leave [...] to colonize the moon.
+>>[...]and must weigh no
+>>more than a pound. In it you must pack whatever you need to sustain you
+>              ^^^^^                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+>>emotionally and spiritually in outer space.
+>  ^^^^^^^^^^^     ^^^^^^^^^^^
+>>   What will you choose??
+>
+>      You're kidding, right??
+>
+>      I'd take a small ceremonial knife from some far away eastern
+> nation so that I could slit my wrists and/or throat.
+> If ONE POUND is all that I was allowed for personal effects,
+> including entertainment and spiritual comfort, I'd go absolutely
+> bonkers inside of a couple of months.  Same would be true for
+> any normal human.

Gee whiz, Bob, haven't you ever done a Gedankenexperiment?  A friendly
artist shows up and asks your opinion and you flame her (or him, we
don't have a name) right between the eyes!

I concede that you gave an answer to the question.  If you really feel
that way, I suggest you take a pint bottle of cyanide instead.  You
can use it to trade with your suicidal crewmates for as long as you're
still interested in staying alive.

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | According to the doctrine
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | of natural selection,
Bitnet:           [e-mail]  | *you* were designed
Internet:       [e-mail]  | by a committee.
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  | The biggest committee ever.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 13:00:08 GMT
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Methods for meteor avoidance
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bernd Felsche) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brendan Woithe) writes:
>>>After the meteor from last year passed withinn 4 minutes of the earth (the
>>>large one), I was wondering if we have any system of avoiding these
>>>large beasts??!! ...
>
> For very large meteors, it may actually be more practical to
> subtly change our own orbit (not through nuclear explosions!),
> though the environmental impact of doing this is mind-blowing.

ANNOUNCER: "Innumeracy-- it doesn't just strike Americans.
It's a global problem."

Bernie's statement is true-- for all "meteors" more massive than the
Earth. Fortunately, such meteors are rare.  We know of only five in
our Solar System, and only one has ever passed closer than 100 million
miles.

> How we change the orbit is left as an exercise for the student. :-)

I claim that any method which works for changing the Earth's orbit,
works even better for changing the asteroid orbit, as long as the
asteroid's mass is less than 6E24 kg.  Flame me if I'm wrong.

ANNOUNCER: "Once, Innumeracy was thought to be a rare disease.  But
now, in just a short time, it has spread to afflict, um, very many
people... in a lot of countries across the globe.  Please give to the
Campaign Against Innumeracy.  We're Counting On You."

During the first and second stage         Bill Higgins
flights of the vehicle, if a serious      Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
irretrievable fault should occur and      [e-mail]
the deviation of the flight attitude of   [e-mail]
the vehicle exceeds a predetermined       SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS
value, the attitude self-destruction
system will make the vehicle
self-destroyed.
     --Long March 3 User's Manual
     Ministry of Astronautics, People's Republic of China (1985)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 13:22:20 GMT
From: bd <@dartmouth.EDU:bd@fluent (Brice Dowaliby)>
Subject: NASP, NLS, SSTO, etc.
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.aeronautics

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Bowery) writes:

>I'm disappointed in Clinton.  I thought he was just a national socialist.
>I didn't realize he had gone all the way to being a communist.

I'm a little confused...

Clinton plans to cut a bunch of public money for NASP, SSTO, and "a few
other launch systems" and this makes him a commie?  Jim, I'd love to hear
your line of reasoning.  Reagan's defense build-up was the largest
welfare program in history!

I'm not saying I support Clinton's position (haven't read enough about it
to know) but I am curious as to how cutting public spending makes one
a communist.

--
    Brice Dowaliby         |    I may speak fluently, but
([e-mail])  |    I don't speak for Fluent

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 12:48:16 BST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Radiative heat loss

> The *square*? Please double-check.
>

> John Roberts
> [e-mail]
>


John is right. It is a T^3 factor.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 14:28:07 BST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Radiative heat loss

> Fourth power, not a linear relationship in any event.
>

> Gary
>


Oh, well, I knew it was I higher power at least :-)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 11:21:10 GMT
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Relativity in science fiction)READ/NEXT
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (John Roberts) writes:
[in speaking of Doc Smith and the Lensman series]
> I've wondered about the chronology of the "negaspheres" (first appearing
> in the series in 1951, and apparently equivalent to antimatter black
> holes) and the development of theories on black holes. When did serious
> theorization on black holes come along?

Laplace figured out (about 1780?) that if escape velocity for a body
was the speed of light, it might be invisible.  Set GM/R = .5*(c**2)
and you can find the radius of a "classical" black hole of a given
mass.  I heard somewhere that this is incorrect but the right order of
magnitude for a relativistic BH.  But it's been a long time since I
had anything to do with black holes, so check with an expert.

J.R. Oppenheimer, working with somebody else who has slipped my mind,
published some work on "modern" black holes in the mid-1930s.

     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
 /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
 |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \       /     Bitnet:     [e-mail]
   -   -       Internet:  [e-mail]
     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:25:25 GMT
From: "Allen W. Sherzer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space position
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Roberts) writes:

>-I would hate to see the just beginning effort to fix NASA get derailed.

>Who on Earth would want to replace Goldin, when he's had such a promising
>start?

Not everybody think it is a promising start. None other than Senator Albert
Gore thought things where fine under Truly and objected strongly to his
firing.

>There are plenty of examples of Cabinet members being kept on through
>a change in Administration, if they're doing well. (And, in case you didn't
>know, Goldin is actually a Democrat, though that doesn't get talked about
>much. :-) I would guess that Goldin is likely to stay, whoever is elected.

I hope so. We will need to push for it should Clinton be elected. But without
support from the administration, Goldin's abilities are very limited. I
don't expect, for example, to see support for Moon/Mars which Goldin is
likely to push for.

>->Note that the platform isn't too different from the current trends in
>->Administration and Congress - keep the manned program going, support...

>-Except for two important differences:

>-1. They want to keep the Shuttle which currently consumes 1/3 of the
>-NASA budget.

>*Everybody* wants to keep the Shuttle for the time being, though nobody's
>particularly happy about it.

I don't know about Clinton but I doubt Gore sees any pressing need to
replace the Shuttle.

>-2. clinton pretty much comes out and says there will be no effort put
>-inot Moon/Mars.

>As opposed to the current thriving SEI program? :-)

There is a BIG difference between an administration pushing the program
and looking for ways to fund it and one willing to let it die a quiet
death.

>Seriously, what
>candidate with a reasonable chance of election has promised more, *and*
>given some clue as to where the money would come from?

It's not a question of money but one of will. We currently spend all we need
to for Moon/Mars.

>(It's my own opinion that starting actual manned Mars exploration / lunar
>colonization right now, with current hardware, would be a mistake...

Why? IMHO most of what we will need we won't develop until we get there.
The Russians have the best EVA gloves available. They have them because
they needeed them.

Demand is the best way to drive inovation.

>-Except that the funding won't be transfered.

>Just after I posted that, I read somewhere that the current Administration
>has expressed interest in the same thing. If both major parties are behind
>it, it might happen.

but will funding be transfered? The odds are better it will under Bush
since he has a better track record. The only person on the other ticket
with a track record has shown he just doesn't care one way or the other.

>So why doncha write letters *before* the election to any candidates who you
>feel are less than fully supportive of space exploration, urging them to
>change their positions? :-)

Agreed.

>Personally, I hope space is a nonissue in the upcoming election. With such
>a close similarity of platform positions, that might turn out to be the case.

I doubt space will be an issue. But that isn't a good thing. The platforms
may be similar (although I suspect we will see important differences when
the Republican platform comes out) but the track records backing them up
are miles apart.

   Allen

--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they     |
|  [e-mail]     |  put a man on the Moon?"                               |
+----------------------270 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 11:11:28 GMT
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tethersat visible? (was Re: TSS-1 launch time)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Richard Murphy) writes:
> TSS-1 is set for launch at 13:56 GMT July 31. The satellite
> deployment should begin early on Aug. 2.

Hmm... when TSS is deployed, will ground observers be able to see two
little dots?

If the satellite is not a naked-eye object, will it be possible to
spot *Atlantis* by eyeball, track with binoculars, and find the TSS?

The orbit is 28.5 degree inclination, so Chicagoans can't play. :-( If
you live in between, oh, latitude 35 and the Equator (either
direction), fire up those prediction programs and subscribe to
[e-mail]...

Engineer of Hijacked Train:      Bill Higgins
"Is this a holdup?"
                                 Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Masked Gunman:
(Hesitates, looks at partner,    Bitnet: [e-mail]
looks at engineer again)         SPAN/Hepnet/Physnet: 43011::HIGGINS
"It's a science experiment!"     Internet: [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 07:48:29 GMT
From: Nick Janow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Whales (SETI)
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (russell wallace) writes:

> That doesn't prove that they are not intelligent.  They could have reasons
> for letting men kill them; reasons that they understand but we don't.  Look
> at all the absurd things humans do in the name of religion.  Aliens judging
> humans by a few religious fanatics might decide that humans aren't
> intelligent.  :)

By that argument, you could suggest that chairs are intelligent, but for
reasons we do not understand choose not to reveal that intelligence, and
instead let humans sit on them and push them around.

Actually, I made no mention of proving that whales _are_ intelligent; I simply
pointed out that your argument did not prove that whales were not intelligent.
Likewise, a chair's lack of apparent intelligent response is not sufficient
proof that it is not intelligent, though it certainly doesn't support a theory
that it is intelligent.  :)

> I would suggest that there is absolutely no reason to believe whales are
> intelligent, ...

There is reason to believe that they might be.  They have large, complex
brains, communicate via complex sounds (though we don't know how much
information is actually exchanged), and engage in activities that could be
signs of intelligence.  However, there is nothing yet that I know of that
convinces me that they are intelligent at a level that makes them more than
simply an animal.  There is also nothing that convinces me to the contrary.

> ...and that furthermore they definitely do not do certain things that can
> reasonably be regarded as showing intelligence, such as using it to preserve
> their lives (when humans evolved intelligence, this was the *first* thing we
> use it for), and that therefore it is reasonable to conclude that whales are
> not intelligent, unless and until we find some evidence that they are.

That only proves that they don't possess both human intelligence _and_ human
thought patterns (motivations, philosophies, etc).  It is not sufficient proof
that they are not intelligent.  I don't believe that human motivations are the
only ones intelligent beings can possess.

Imagine that whales have intelligence at our level, and they all share a common
religion.  This religion states that life is a temporary phase on the way to
something better, and that dying is nothing to be concerned about.  That
religion might also state (through an interpretation of the "Dead Sea Song")
that revealing to any non-whale beings that whales are intelligent is a
terrible sin which would send that whale to eternal agony.

There: an explanation for whales' apparent lack of intelligent activity or
concern for death.  Mass beachings could be a religious ceremony equivalent to
sacrificing a goat to bring the sun back, or bowing to Mecca at noon.  It is no
more ludicrous than most human religions.  Perhaps whale's form of intelligence
makes belief in religion far stronger than humanities (ie. whales have less
doubt), and thus no whales sneak off to talk to media reporters.  :)

--

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 92 05:41:48 GMT
From: Gary Coffman <ke4zv!gary>
Subject: Whales (SETI)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Janow) writes:
>[e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>
>> Any creature that doesn't grasp mathematics can't be said to be intelligent.
>
>Well, that lets out a lot of high school graduates.  :-)

And a lot of college graduates and most politicians. Innumeracy is a
major problem.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:05:33 GMT
From: "R. Cage" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Whales (SETI)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Roberts) writes:
>Whales clearly lack some of the intellectual capabilities of humans (for
>instance, humans don't appear to be prone to mass beachings).

Then what do you call the migrations to Ft. Lauderdale, Miami,
California, Hawaii, etc. whenever the weather is nice?  ;-)

Seriously, humans have had mass suicides (Jonestown), institutionalized
mass murder (Germany under Hitler, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Ukraine under
Stalin, to name a few from this century), cults of self-genocide (the
Shakers), and other incidents of doing in large numbers of ourselves.
If the whale beachings are cetacian seppuku, then it's not clear that
they are any less intelligent than we are, just *different* (not too
surprising).  If it's accident, then it's not clear that their sonar
and limited sight (accidents of evolution) are not more to blame than
any lack of brainpower.

>It would be
>interesting to find out what capabilities they do have, for instance in the
>area of abstract reasoning.

Indeed it would.  The results would be enlightening regardless of
what they were, so long as they were well-grounded.
--
Russ Cage   [e-mail]  [e-mail]
  *  When Ford pays me for my opinions, THEN they can call them theirs. *

                           _Bad_ cop.  No donut.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:14:22 BST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Whales and Dolphins

> Whales clearly lack some of the intellectual capabilities of humans
(for
> instance, humans don't appear to be prone to mass beachings). It
would be
>


But to be fair, this may be due to disease or to perceptual problems
with their echo-system in shallow waters. It might be a whalish
equivalent of being stuck in a room with built in optical illusions.

This could bring up some interesting questions. Human perception can
be fooled by certain illusions because of the way we have evolved our
perceptual systems. One might wonder what sorts of illusions
evolution on other worlds might toss up. Note that even given the
same sort of environment, there is a certain sensitivity to WHEN
certain capabilities evolve. There are illusions that occur not at
the low level, but at higher levels of perception and across visual
perception subsystems. (ie color vision is actually an entirely
seperate visual subsystem from that which maps motion, since it
relatively new in evolutionary terms.)

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End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 042
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